Phizzy how many differences have you seen between the original magazines and their replacements in the bound volumes? I have only seen one difference (other than that the bound ones excluded the advertising which was on the back cover). Where can we find documentation of the alleged changes?
Disillusioned JW
JoinedPosts by Disillusioned JW
-
48
No more public WT & Awake?
by mikeflood inhave you guys noticed, this year 2023 no more public edition magazines...i wonder how they are gonna spin that fact.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
-
48
No more public WT & Awake?
by mikeflood inhave you guys noticed, this year 2023 no more public edition magazines...i wonder how they are gonna spin that fact.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
What is the source for paraphrase of the words of GB Mark Sanderson? What is the source for news/claim of no more public issues of "no more public edition magazines"?
After typing the above I did a web search and found a comment at https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/yek43h/no_more_public_edition_watchtower_and_awake_mags/ .
Update: I notice one comment posted at the above reddit page says the following. "Branch letter a couple months ago said only one WT and Awake will be released for 2023 (in Nov/Dec). They’re really cutting costs (nobody reads them anyway), we all know where the money is going…"
smiddy3, sadly in my case, the Awake! magazines from the late 1970s - very early 1980s contributed to me deciding to get baptized as a JW in the very early 1980s. That is because they contained articles which were highly critical of biological evolution and carbon dating (and tree ring dating), causing me to greatly question those matters rather than agreeing that scientists were right on those matters. Furthermore, the Awake! and the Watchtower had articles which made me very scared to read articles which promoted evolution and the accuracy of radiometric dating, and of literature promoting atheism (and of criticisms of the Bible), for they made me think I might get deceived by reading such and thus loose salvation.
From the late 1970s through around 2008 the Awake! magazine was far more interesting to me to read than the Watchtower magazine, since the Awake! contained articles on science.
-
14
JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
Thanks for your comments joe134cd.
I was raised from infancy by JW parents (and my grandparents were also JWs while I was an infant and onward, till they died). [I was born prior to 1970.] I had been convinced (without doubts) of the WT's "Starous / Stake thing" view probably until at least the mid 1990s and possibly even until about 2000 or 2005. It probably wasn't until after around 2005 that I thought the that Jesus probably died on a cross instead of a stake.The change in my view was due to me watching documentary programs on TV which talked about the method of the execution of Jesus, and of me reading evangelical Christian criticisms (online and in books) of the WT's position about Starous. A key point for me was the gospel attributed to John saying imprint of the "nails" instead of "nail" in Jesus' hands.
-
170
Staying in physically for all the benefits
by Indoubtbigtime ini wonder how many are like me staying pimo for the great association and gathering etc.
also find it very interesting having a front row seat watching the collapse of borg.. im not wasting any more time or money on anything i don’t want to do like preaching and mostly just go on zoom .
there is nothing i want to do that would be considered disfellowshiping sin, i’m married and want to live by bible principles but i have serious doubts that the gb were chosen by god and are his one and only spokesmen on earth.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
For those who reject the fact that humans landed on the moon, despite believing in the WT's teachings, today I have found another WT publication which says humans went to the moon. It is the booklet called "The Time for True Submission to God" (copyright 1982). On page 36 in paragraph one it says the following. 'Today, science is highly thought of. Scientists have sent men to the moon. They have made life more comfortable for some. .. Hence, men tend to look down on things that they feel are not "scientific." '
After quoting a biblical verse about the earth hanging "upon nothing" and a biblical verse about the "circle of the earth" the same booklet on page 37 in paragraph 4 says the following. "Does that sound unscientific to you? Or is that not exactly what the American and Russian astronauts see when they venture into outer space in their rocket ships? How could people thousands of years ago have known that the earth was hanging in empty space unless God himself had revealed it to them?"
Notice that the WT uses what astronauts saw in space far from the Earth, to try to prove a teaching of the Bible (in support of the WT's claim of the Bible being divinely inspired). If one denies that people saw such then you remove that argument which has been used in support of a biblical teaching. However divine inspiration was not needed, for some philosopher scientists in ancient times knew that the Earth was round with no visible support in space, in part because of reasoning upon observations of curvature of the shadow cast upon the Moon by the Earth.
-
14
JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
I was not making the point that the Bible excluded a number of scientific facts. Instead the point I was alluding to is that modern day scientific findings disprove a number of the Bible's claims, including the specific claims I listed in my first post of this topic thread. In other words, modern science combined with rational reasoning shows that the Bible is completely wrong in some of what it teaches (and thus not the word of a truthful all-knowing God). I thought that if people investigated the specific claims of the Bible (the ones I listed in my first post) using modern scientific findings, some of those people would discover such for themselves. For me that is very significant, and when I discovered some of scientific findings pertaining to those claims of the Bible I ceased believing in the Bible as being the inspired word of Jehovah/Yahweh God, and thus I also ceased believing in the existence of Jehovah God and Jesus Christ, and the supernatural (including Satan the Devil, angels, demons, resurrections of the dead, and eternal life for humans).
On a different topic consider the following.
Today I found something fascinating to me as a result of me researching "sm pp. 17-18 par. 8" of the opening post. I found out that "sm" is the booklet called "The Time for True Submission to God". After reading (in my copy of the booklet) what the opening post quoted from that booklet I browsed the book and found a quote on page 30 from An Appendix to The Companion Bible. That quote said that the Jesus Christ was "... put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed at any angle." Since I know that the WT often mishandles quotes and since numerous scholarly sources say that Jesus was most likely put to death onto a stake which had a cross beam (and thus was a cross), I wondered if the quote by the WT of The Companion Bible was misleading. I then searched online for a full quote of The Companion Bible and discovered that the quote is not misleading. I found the fuller quote at https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/92381/facts-on-crucifixion-stauros-torture-stake?page=14 in a post made by abelElElyon from 14 years ago. Ideally I should also track down an actual copy of The Companion Bible and read it directly to see if says such, but since that will take some considerable time and effort to do such, for now the quote I found will suffice for me.
However, page 15 of the above mentioned topic thread has a post which says in part the following. "The problem is that the classical Greek hadn't been spoken for centuries by the time of Jesus. The bible is written in koine Greek [which is Hellenistic]. Stauros [in koine Greek] means 1]an upright stake with a cross beam above it.2] two intersecting beams of equal length, or 3] a vertical stake."
It should also be noted that according to http://jesusisyhwh.blogspot.com/2008/03/ The Companion Bible was published in 1885 and thus might be up to date in its understanding on what the Bible says Jesus was nailed to. But https://www.christianbook.com/kjv-companion-bible-genuine-leather-black/9780825422379/pd/542240X gives a different date for the first edition of The Companion Bible for it says the following. "The Companion Bible by Bullinger was released in six parts, beginning in 1910, and Bullinger's identity as author of the notes and editor was purposely left off the title page." https://www.logos.com/product/38911/the-companion-bible says the following. "The Companion Bible has been a trusted resource for personal Bible study for almost a century. Originally published in six parts from 1909 to 1922, this classic study Bible, in its print edition, featured a two-column format, with Scripture on the left and notes on the right, covering Genesis through Revelation."
It wasn't until after 1885 that scholars discovered (due to fining numerous more manuscripts in Greek) that the Greek of the Bible (koine Greek) was actually the very common Greek of the people in the first century. It had differences from the classical Greek. See https://christianpublishinghouse.co/2019/07/22/fragments-of-truth-500-thousand-papyrus-texts-were-accidentally-discovered-in-egypt/ . As a result, it might still be likely that the WT is wrong in teaching that Jesus was not nailed upon a cross (an upright pole with a cross beam).
-
14
JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
People should also test the Bible against itself, to see if it contradicts itself. If the person finds such contradictions the person should then ask how reliable is the Bible and the person should ask how confident is he/she of the correctness of some specific claims made by parts of the Bible.
-
14
JW's: Research your beliefs..................
by BoogerMan inw59 8/1 p. 458 par.
17-18 par.
w08 4/15 p. 6 par.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
That is a great post. Many of the quotes from the WT include good advice when it comes to testing testing religious claims, but they don't go far enough. Besides testing the religious claims with the Bible, one should also test the Bible's claims with science. For some examples, one should test using science the following claims of the Bible: non-evolutionary special creationism (including the first man being made directly from dirt less than 10,000 years ago); life existing on Earth for no more than 10,000 years or no more than 49,000 years (7 times 7,000 years); that none of the stars (not including our Sun) begin their existence millions of years before our Sun; that our planet Earth really come into existence before our Sun; that plants on Earth really come into existence before our Sun began emitting sunlight and even before our Sun came into existence; there really a flood (especially a global one) of Noah's day in the past 5,000 years (with animals of all kinds being in the Ark); Hebrews being slaves in ancient Egypt and later making a mass exodus to Canaan; was Jericho destroyed when the Bible claims it was and by the means the Bible claims; is there really a personal creator God who has interacted with humans and directed human history; did the 10 plagues really happen upon ancient Egypt; does intercessory prayer really work (is there statistical evidence it works better than without intercessory prayer to heal people); was Jesus Christ actually resurrected to eternal life; is there scientific proof that demons or any other spirit beings really exist (such as proof that any spirit beings interact with humans in ways which make obvious their interactions); was there ever a time during the past 500 million years when predatory animals did not exist (for example when none of the animals living long ago killed another animal for food, or instead have scientists found skeletons of animals within the rib cages of other animals from millions of years ago); etc.
-
63
Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
I am not convinced that "Revelation 11:2 specifies the length of the ‘gentile times’ as 3.5 years", however it does specify that the length of time which the nations/gentiles would trample the 'holy city' is 42 months [3.5 years]. To me "gentile times" probably means rule by gentiles, not merely the length of one siege by gentiles. Though the writer or writers of Revelation might have had only 3.5 years in mind, the writer of the gospel called Luke might have had a different length of time in mind (maybe even on of indefinite length). Some scholars (promoting the Christ myth theory), including Richard Carrier (an atheist), claim that all of the gospels were written after all of the other books of the NT were written.
Regarding when Luke was written, how can it be known that it was written before 132 CE instead of after 132 CE.? Granted a number of information sources say it was written before 100 CE (with various scholars disagreeing as to the year, though stating a year prior to 100 CE) but how can we be sure it wasn't written later? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Luke says "The most probable date for its composition is around AD 80–110, and there is evidence that it was still being revised well into the 2nd century.[11]" [Update: I now think that probably was originally written before 132 CE (though probably revised later) since Marcion of Sinope used "a shorter version of the Gospel of Luke" than the common one and since Marcion "... was excommunicated by the church of Rome around 144" CE (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcion_of_Sinope ).]
I agree that there is no reason to believe that the book of Luke (nor the book of Revelation) is magical.
-
63
Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
-
-
-
63
Jerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the Gentile Times are Fulfilled. — Luke 21:24
by Fisherman injerusalem will be trampled by the nations until the gentile times are fulfilled.
— luke 21:24 .
the bible book of luke records jesus prophecy of the last day with his parousia including the verse about the gentile times.
-
-
Disillusioned JW
I disagree with Jeffro, in regards to what the writer of the book called "According to Luke" means by when the when "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". For simplicity, in the rest of this post I will refer to the writer of the book as 'Luke', though the writer is actually anonymous.
Luke 21:24 (NASB) says "and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." The Roman empire took many Jews as captives and did place them into various nations which were under Roman control, but the trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles didn't permanently end in 70 CE. [Furthermore, the trampling by gentiles began when the Babylonians conquered Jerusalem.] Note that the latter part of verse 24 uses the plural word of "Gentiles" and it used it twice. The verse does not say "a Gentile nation" will trample upon Jerusalem, but rather "Gentiles" (possibly meaning multiple gentile nations). Perhaps by "Gentiles" it simply means multiple gentile individuals (such as in the composition of the Roman armies), but it also speaks the trampling continuing until the times of the Gentiles end (are "are fulfilled").
Though the Romans destroyed Jerusalem in 70 CE, the trampling of Jerusalem by Gentile armies did not come to a permanent end then. Furthermore, the writer of the Gospel likely knew such, for the the gospel account was likely written well after the year 100 CE (possibly even after the Bar Kokhba revolt ended in the year 135 [or 136] CE). For example consider the following. The Jews, led by Bar Kokhba, had another revolt in Judah (after Masada fell in 71 CE to the Romans) and they temporarily liberated much of Judea (even Jerusalem) from the Romans, but the Romans armies eventually reconquered what they lost in Judea (including Jerusalem). See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_Kokhba_revolt . It says the following.
"Fought c. 132–136 CE,[6] it was the last of three major Jewish–Roman wars, so it is also known as the Third Jewish–Roman War or, the Third Jewish Revolt. Some historians also refer to it as the Second Revolt[7] of Judea, not counting the Kitos War (115–117 CE), which had only marginally been fought in Judea.
... Despite arrival of significant Roman reinforcements from Syria, Egypt, and Arabia, initial rebel victories established an independent state over most parts of the province for over three years, as Bar Kokhba took the title of Nasi ("head of state"). Many Jews regarded him as the Messiah, who would restore their national independence.[13]
... The Bar Kokhba revolt resulted in the extensive depopulation of the Jewish communities of Judea, more so than during the First Jewish–Roman War.[15] Some scholars describe it as a genocide.[15][16]
The Bar Kokhba revolt greatly influenced the course of Jewish history and the philosophy of the Jewish religion. Despite easing the persecution of Jews following Hadrian's death in 138 CE, the Romans barred Jews from Jerusalem, except for attendance in Tisha B'Av. Jewish messianism was abstracted and spiritualized, and rabbinical political thought became deeply cautious and conservative. .. It was also among the key events to differentiate Christianity as a religion distinct from Judaism.[22] Although Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as the Messiah and did not support Bar Kokhba,[23] they were barred from Jerusalem along with the other Jews.[24] "
Note the Wikipedia article says "It was also among the key events to differentiate Christianity as a religion distinct from Judaism". It is a significant point and it might indicate the gospel of 'Luke' was written after the Bar Kokhba revolt (or give us clues to the thinking of the writer of the gospel named after 'Luke'). Also keep in mind that 'Luke' was likely a gentile Christian instead of a Jewish Torah-keeping Christian.
Note that the Wikipedia source says it lasted from about (c.) 132 CE - 136 CE, however according to https://www.britannica.com/event/Bar-Kokhba-Revolt it lasted from 132 CE to 135 CE, for that source says the following.
"Bar Kokhba Revolt, also called Second Jewish Revolt, (132–135 ce), Jewish rebellion against Roman rule in Judaea.
... With the fall of Jerusalem and then Bethar, the fortress to the southwest of Jerusalem where Bar Kokhba was slain, the rebellion was crushed in 135. According to Christian sources, Jews were thenceforth forbidden to enter Jerusalem."
The Jewish site at https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-bar-kokhba-revolt-132-135-ce also says the war was from 132 CE to 135 CE. So which year did it end in, 135 CE or 136 CE? Did the war last for about 3.5 years?
The previously mentioned Jewish site says the following.
"In 135 C.E., Hadrian’s army besieged Bethar and on the 9th of Av, the Jewish fast day commemorating the destruction of the first and second Holy Temples, the walls of Bethar fell. After a fierce battle, every Jew in Bethar was killed. Six days passed before the Romans allowed the Jews to bury their dead.
Following the battle of Bethar, there were a few small skirmishes in the Judean Desert Caves, but the war was essentially over and Judean independence was lost. The Romans plowed Jerusalem with a yoke of oxen. Jews were sold into slavery and many were transported to Egypt. Judean settlements were not rebuilt. Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city called Aelia Capitolina and the Jews were forbidden to live there. They were permitted to enter only on the 9th of Av to mourn their losses in the revolt. Hadrian changed the country’s name from Judea to Syria Palestina."
Note that in 135 CE Jews were taken captive by Roman armies and sold into slavery and that many of them were taken to Egypt (a gentile nation) - and thus taken into captivity. That is very significant since Luke 21:24 says "will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled". Thus from 132 CE to 135 CE (or possibly even to 136 CE) the Romans (a force made of up of gentiles) trampled Jerusalem under their feet. Note that after the war ended in 135 CE (or 136 CE) that Jerusalem was turned into a pagan city, with no Jews being allowed to live there. Surely for decades after 136 CE Jerusalem was thus being trampled by gentiles and under gentile control and thus the times of gentile rule upon Jerusalem was still in progress. I think it is very possible that 'Luke' (the writer of the gospel named after Luke, regardless of whom the actual writer was), wrote the gospel after the year 132 CE. Over about the next 1800 years (after 136 CE) various gentile nations took control of Jerusalem. West Jerusalem continued to be under gentile control until Jews conquered it in 1948, and East Jerusalem continued to be under gentile control until Jews conquered it in 1967. The times of gentile control over Jerusalem finally ended in 1967, though Israel allows gentile (Arab/Palestinian) citizens of Israel to be part of the government of Israel, and though Israel might make a peace treaty in which East Jerusalem (or some suburbs of it) becomes part of an independent Palestinian state recognized by both Israel and the U.S.A.